Where is the cheapest place to buy lithium batteries right now? Hi Dave, Yea, been there done that as they say. We know that building or upgrading an electrical system can be overwhelming, so were here to help. Length (in): 12-13/16 Inch. Weve got more answers! Pasted as rich text. For instance, making a connection to the positive and negative terminals in this orientation is different than a parallel connection. Advice on Mixing Lithium Batteries and AGM Batteries? Battery Mixing integrating Lithium Lifepo4 AGM or Gel There is a good way to do that, a better way and a, The best way? People also ask, Is it OK to mix battery types? Different chemistries have different storage/discharge properties. But it totally depends on the voltage regulator on the alternator. Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by Deering, Jul 24, 2019. Applying a 15v+ equalization charge to a lithium battery can permanently destroy the cells. Yes Sydney is or was my home. Left there 10 years ago to go cruising, so family friends etc still there, thanks for yuor thoughts. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Dragonfly Energy collects personal information for its internal use. The Lithium battery is NOT to be installed under the hood. Two 200Ah lithium batteries, for example, may be connected in parallel. I have used them for years and they are great, but do not make a mistake with them, nor cross them as you will pay !! We have a Centaur 12/100 charger currently charging all the batteries. The lithium battery, on the other hand, will drain into the AGM since the AGM's resting voltage is lower than the lithium's. That would take many weeks, but the two kinds of batteries may be used in parallel if charged and utilized on a weekly basis. Battery leakage and sub-optimal device performance may occur when cells are mixed. AGM and lithium batteries are both popular options for a variety of applications, including renewable energy systems, recreational vehicles, and boats. longer than AGM and requires far less charging time to fill up. The greater the difference in voltage, the higher the probability of battery failure. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post. What kind of regulator do you have on the alternator? Additionally, AGM and lithium batteries have different charging requirements, so using them together may not provide optimal performance. New lithium's will allow you to run 12/24/36 out of a single battery, you just need the right capacity. That can only happen when your Lithium battery is gone down so low in Voltage, that the difference in voltage will course the alternator to be overloaded. If you have a 24V trolling motor, you can use 2 12V batteries in series or a single 24V battery. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. AGM batteries also tend to have lower internal resistance. They also have a shorter lifespan compared to lithium batteries, which can last up to three times longer. Underway, off shore power, the Odyssey battery terminal voltage rapidly drops to 12.8 volts, and the LiFePO4 batteries (Bank 2) pick up the entire load until a transition occurs at 12.8 volts, where the Odyssey battery begins to take up the load. 3+ day shipping. A 12.8 V battery consists of 4 cells connected in series and a 25.6 V battery consists of 8 cells connected in series. Can you shut off or change the BMS board? A good voltage regulator always shuts down the main source of the alternator and therefore I dot think you should be worried. Many people have asked if you can use one together with the HP-40 Lithium battery. So Thank you all for the discussion, and input. Once again for the sake of knowledge, I also have been told that Yamaha does not cover warranty issues in regards to using lithium batteries as starting batteries. In the olden types, in microseconds it shut the the output down, if all batteries are fully charged. Find the Perfect Fit: What Size Wiper Blades for Your 2016 Honda Pilot. Combining various kinds of lithium batteries and lead-acid batteries is not recommended for battery safety. Connecting batteries in parallel enhances total current capacity and overall amp-hour capacity by lowering total resistance. Overheating a Li-Ion automobile battery is quite dangerous. Well I went and did it. If the lithium is rated as a starting battery, then yes. Yes it fits, but that all you can say about it. Due to differences in battery management systems and battery cell counts, there may be a charging and voltage discrepancy between batteries. Recently, technological advances have made them usable for solar-plus-storage setups as well. But I didnt quite realize what I was getting intotypical. If you are considering mixing these batteries, it is best to consult with a professional or refer to the manufacturers guidelines. Mixing AGM and Lead Acid batteries? : r/CarAV - Reddit Lithium and AGM together - Marine Electronics - Bass Fishing Forums Its NOT compatible. Weve got more answers! Pin it! So firstly some information: While they have some similarities, these two types of batteries also have some key differences that you should be aware of before considering mixing them. This in your case, it could solve the problem, if you take a diode with higher current. But it's a subject I'm very interested in. One of the main differences between AGM and lithium batteries is their chemical composition. Consider this: with rare exception, even the largest pair of factory diesel batteries on a non-commercial truck are in the 65Ah (Amp Hour) range, and come with slower charging speeds, lower resting voltage and lower wattage capabilities vs. a lithium battery. It is important to consider the differences between these two types of batteries and follow best practices for battery use to ensure optimal performance and longevity. AGM and Lithium batteries | Downeast Boat Forum Philippi Monitoring System. !!! A lot faster. When you connect two or more batteries that don't charge and discharge at the same rate, one battery will probably end up overcharged and/or one battery will end up undercharged. Your email address will not be published. Rugged A lead-acid battery will fa il prematurely due to sulfation : If it operates in deficit mode during long periods of time (i. e. if the battery is rarely, or never at all, fully charged). Im sorry to say the one they show as compatible for my 4JHTE (and your 3JH2E) is no where near it. Can I Connect Dissimilar Batteries in Parallel? Casts, when you mentioned the push from one source to the other, with lead acid and agm, is there an issue other then drawing the more powerful battery down quicker? Without an isolator installed and the car is on, the lithium battery will charge at the same time the AGM does. Most commonly, parallel-only connections are found in 12V systems. How does Ionic's deep cycle capacity (Ah) rating compare to lead-acid Ah ratings? Many don't so Im used to that. I heard Lithium Deep Cycle batteries were unsafe and are a fire hazard. There are four different chemical types of marine batteries for your boat: wet cell (flooded), gel cell, absorbed glass mat (AGM), which are all lead-acid batteries, and lithium. Different types of batteries (flooded or AGM) also can have different charge/discharge characteristics. Theres only one correct answer to your questions. If more power is needed, Goal Zero offers its Yeti Link Expansion Module that allows for the addition of lead-acid expansion batteries. My thinking would be to use an AC charger for the house bank - since that'll most likely be the one you seriously draw down on and need high charging capacity. Why did I do this? You may enhance the storage capacity or the voltage of any battery system by adding numerous deep cycle batteries. A series banks batteries must all have the same amp-hour rating. Lithium ion is a new addition to the marine industry. The BMPRO Invicta lithium batteries, for example, may be connected in parallel with up to four other batteries. But, for the sake of understanding, do you have more information as to why or better, why not? Can you imagine all this happening if you were to make a simple mistake in your boat ??? If you have an AGM battery, use a multi-stage smart charger. Question: Love your videos!! AGM batteries are a type of lead-acid battery that have traditionally been used in cars. What are your options? Optima Products | O'Reilly Auto Parts If more please let me know. I do not think your alternator works harder. If you have a 12V trolling motor, then you can choose from several 12V lithium battery options. Also, join us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube to learn more about how lithium battery systems can power your lifestyle, see how others have built their systems, and gain the confidence to get out there and stay out there. LIFEPO4 at up to 90% and both have different charging characteristics, I personally think it not worth the hassle and potential setup challenges with at least multiple BMS's etc. Bert, Hi Deering, Sorry, I overlooked the real problem and just gave some nonsense, my apology for that . If the AGM wasnt present would the alternator voltage go higher? Lithium ion chemistries can tolerate a higher rate of current, allowing them to charge more quickly than lead acid batteries. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below. The connections on this type of battery bank go from positive to positive and negative to negative. We print our 800 number (888-8-OPTIMA) and e-mail address (info@optimabatteries.com) on every battery we sell. You can run your devices for twice as long as you dont have to charge the batteries if you have 2x the current reserve. The turn-on wire would be connected to the amplifiers remote wire. Batteries with vastly varied performance characteristics should not be used in tandem. My boat has 4 x 12v AGM batteries total. Combining an old lead acid battery with a more capable battery in series is kind of like combining an old mule with a stronger younger mule in a team. Engine Start Batteries. Clear editor. The can you use a lithium battery as a starting battery is a question that has been asked for years. I am adding Lithium house batteries. Neither is a scenario you want to have happen to your batteries, as it will probably shorten the lifespan of both and could create a potentially create a dangerous situation, if one battery gets severely overcharged. Advice on Mixing Lithium Batteries and AGM Batteries? This will cause the highest voltage battery to charge the lowest voltage battery attempting to create balance in the circuit. The lithium battery, on the other hand, will drain into the AGM since the AGMs resting voltage is lower than the lithiums. We had thought about switching to lithium batteries three years ago when we changed batteries. Marine Battery Breakdown: Dual Purpose vs. Deep Cycle vs. Starting Toggle Comment visibility. KC Spectra is a dynamic and versatile author with a passion for storytelling. Deep Cycle Lithium Marine Battery Group Size 31 Replaces Optima D31M 9052-161 Bluetop 1200CCA. you do not want to tick off a lithium battery, because when they are not treated the way they want.they catch on firequickly..very quicklythen they burn white hot and burn up anything within there reach !! This is critical. Height (in): 9-3/8 Inch. As such, they essentially charge and discharge at a different rate a year later, than they did when they were brand-new. Bank 2: Three 100 AH LiFePO4 batteries in parallel. A: Because the chemistries and voltages of different battery kinds and brands differ, we do not advocate mixing batteries. This means that they have different charging requirements and can perform differently in certain situations. AGM vs. Lithium Battery for Trolling Motor While the car is on and the alternator running, the lithium is usually near completely charged, while the AGM is still slowly building a charge. Should I use DC to DC charger like the Victron Orion-Tr or a battery combiner like the Blue Seas IC-ACR? Old house bank of AGM batteries. The main downside is that they are very heavy. The voltage is increased by connecting the batteries in series, but the total amp-hour capacity is not increased. If one battery in a 24 volt system, run by AGM batteries ,were to die, what would be the pros and cons of putting a lithium in as a replacement. If for some reason the Lithium Ion controllers shut-down one of the batteries, then the other battery in the "Real House Bank also shuts down, then, they would both be disconnected., If your Balmar 250 Amp alternator is trying to charge the batteries, it would see NO battery and it's diodes could get fried., By having an single "Emergency" AGM sitting as Battery 2, then the Alternator would have a place for the smart voltage regulator to send the current to. OPTIMA (R) Batteries represent the ultimate in performance and quality. Nor may it be copied, published, rewritten, or redistributed. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Most lithiums are rated for deep-cycle only and the BMS prevents high-amp discharges of the type needed to start a motor. Batteries are essentially interchangeable as long as they are the same size and belong to the same chemical category (all lithiums, all alkalines, etc.). OPTIMA YellowTop AGM Spiralcell Dual Purpose Battery, Group Size 51R. Series Connections This type of connection is used when you need to increase the voltage of your battery bank. All lead acid batteries should be of the same brand, size, and age, as is standard procedure. Help, my SmartLithium doesn't allow me to discharge, says voltage is too low. Battery Isolator with Lithium and Lead Acid Connections How To Wire AGM and Lithium Batteries Together - JY Power Happy sailing off to Taiwan and Japan soon, so if you see a glow in the sky, I got wrong and you can say I told you so. As long as your various amp hour rated batteries are of the same kind, you may connect them in parallel. Lithium-ion has certain disadvantages, despite its overall benefits. $989.99. The old mule will be pushed beyond its capability by the young mule and probably wont last long. I believe they meant for long runs like spot lock in a fast current. Some tips for using AGM and lithium batteries include: In conclusion, it is generally not recommended to mix AGM and lithium batteries. I was referring to oil filters. I already run the new style LiFePo4, by itself, for electronics only. I have been wondering, and I know that there will be many on this site who will know. Once the car is off, the AGM battery is still looking for energy. This is a tricky one, because you can't change Li when below freezing, so a separate LA system is needed. Any attempt to connect Battle Born Batteries of different amp-hours will result in avoidedwarranty. Save with. Effectively what youll do is push charge from the lithium to the lead acid constantly. Mixing lithium & AGM batteries | Boat Design Net Can you mix lithium and lead-acid batteries on an energy storage project? This is due to the fact that the load characteristics and capacities of various batteries are vastly different, potentially posing a safety risk. These two sites have a good discussion of building lithium-lead hybrid, Consider some Durocell AGMs, available at a reasonable, https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html, Electrical Design For a Marine Lithium Battery Bank | | Nordkyn Design, Lithium, where to buy - VI's or Puerto Rico. Also could you check what the current is at 14.4 Volt when charging the AGM, if only a few mili Ampere it answer your question. When youre building a battery bank for your mobile or off-grid application, it can be tempting to mix and match different battery sizes. I have witnessed personally a lithium battery get hooked up to the wrong charger. AGM batteries also have a limited charge cycle life and only 50% of useable energy. Because my inverter draws 100 A - which is connected to and drawn from only the Odyssey battery. What Size Wiper Blades for 2012 Nissan Altima? Its impossible to link batteries with various amp-hour capacities in sequence and get satisfactory results. When you connect two or more batteries that don't charge and discharge at the same rate, one battery will probably end up overcharged and/or one battery will end up undercharged. even the LiFeP04 can handle that. It prevent the AGM to discharge into the Lithium batteries and the Lithium battery feeding the AGM. The heat causes the batterys cells to breakdown more quickly than normal. For some marine and RV applications that use a lot of batteries, it may make sense to isolate a larger bank of nine batteries into three smaller banks of three batteries, instead of connecting them all together. It makes perfect sense as unless you have deep pockets for gear or damaging batteries, have the time to experiment and don't fully depend on the system and are willing to risk losing the AGM (I think they are most at risk given DOD) if things go wrong then you may just be that pioneer everyone is waiting for. AGM vs. Lithium at Batteries Plus This new research could help eliminate the need for heavy metals in battery production and transform the long-term sustainability of many elements of our energy infrastructure. Lithium vs lead acid or AGM batteries | Downeast Boat Forum Replacing AGM Batteries with Lithium Ion on a Boat Your previous content has been restored. I skimmed the specs for the centaur, and it looks like you may have to do some research on whether you can match the voltage settings on it with the lithiums you're intending to get. This is less of a problem when combining old and new Lithium batteries because the BMS in the old battery will cut off before the battery is exhausted. Remove the factory battery from the vehicle. AGM should give a longer life, should expect 12 years, I have a Odyssey in a boat and going on 11 years now. PDF FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS - Lion Energy I'm no expert in this. Let us know if you have any additional questions about wiring or want to purchase more batteries for your system. Two lithium batteries of equal voltage and amperage are recommended as the maximum battery bank size. The same is also true of batteries that are identical in every way, except that one battery is older than the other. Anything new is like that The basic rule is that when the battery strings are isolated from each other, they may be used in parallel as long as their overall voltage is the same. That could be the challenge to overcome. We have a Centaur 12/100 charger currently charging all the batteries. It is not possible to mix the two types of batteries together, as they are two different types of chemistry. While it may be possible, it can be risky and may not provide the desired results. Their literature says that their max voltage is 14.4 and their management system shuts them down at 14.6. 2 x AGM in bank 1 2 x AGM in bank 2 Bank 1 still has very robust voltage but bank 2 has failed and needs to be replaced. Check out our website or give our sales and tech team a call at 855-292-2831. Mixing AGM and Lithium batteries - Cruisers & Sailing Forums Battery Type: AGM. Can You Connect Lithium Ion and Lead Acid Batteries Together? Copyright 1997-2023 The Ultimate Bass Fishing Resource Guide LLC All rights reserved. It has been a total game-changer. Buy NOCO Genius GENPRO10X4, 4-Bank, 40A (10A/Bank) Smart Marine Battery Charger, 12V Waterproof Onboard Boat Charger, Battery Maintainer and Desulfator for AGM, Lithium (LiFePO4) and Deep-Cycle Batteries: Battery Chargers - Amazon.com FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases Camp 2x longer with 2 lithium batteries vs. 2 lead acid batteries. Privacy Statement. Mixing AGM and Lithium Batteries: Is it Safe and Effective? I don't want to stuck without instruments or power for a variety of reasons. 1. Also, if the LiFePO4 batteries ever reach low-voltage-cutoff, I won't have an abrupt loss of all power since the load will be shared by the Odyssey battery. This will cause the highest voltage battery to charge the lowest voltage battery attempting to create balance in the circuit. I was just asking the question for a better understanding. Most commonly, parallel-only connections are found in 12V systems. Unfortunately, that means when one battery in a bank of two or more batteries needs to be replaced, they should all be replaced at the same time. We recommend this because lithium batteries charge faster than AGM. The "house load" is supported by both Bank 1 and Bank 2 through a battery combiner (I built my own using Schottky diodes, but commercial combiners are available). This is very helpful. Whether writing science fiction, fantasy, or contemporary fiction, KC brings a unique voice and fresh perspective to every project. If you connect two batteries in parallel, youll obtain 12 volts and 1200 CCA. This is because the resting voltage of the Lithium is higher than the AGM. Generator start battery. AGM batteries for solar: what you need to know - EnergySage Blog Minn Kota recommends a group 27 size for deep cycle batteries, but consider the size of your boat's compartments before deciding. Required fields are marked *. How to Choose Marine Batteries | Types, Sizes and Uses Different brands of batteries can have different charging and discharging characteristics, with some accepting a charge or delivering current faster than others. I have heard that you really don't want a lithium to go "bad". There may be a charge and voltage mismatch across batteries due to variances in battery management systems and battery cell numbers. Learn about the potential risks and benefits of mixing these two types of batteries, and get expert tips for using AGM and lithium batteries safely and effectively. What are the best Lithium Marine Batteries for house and engine batteries. Thanks Bertku. The best way? You can buy the charger online from a site like Amazon. Parallel Connections These connections are used when you want to increase the amperage of your battery bank. Lets talk about AGM batteries for a minute. On our boat, we currently have AGM batteries for the house bank (3 ea), start battery (1), and the bow thruster (2). Connecting this way will double your amps (see diagram below). These types of battery connections are found in all types of battery banks including 12V, 24V,and48V systems. Is It Dangerous to Mix Battery Sizes? | Battle Born Batteries Solar panels. Mixing AGM and Lithium Batteries: Is it Safe and Effective? Bert. Your battery will be charged to 14.6 volts using both lead acid and lithium chargers. You dont need a special charger for lithium batteries. Deep cycle batteries simply have heavier plates. Mixing an old and new battery, even of the same type/model, will cause the system to 'average out' and reduce performancethat's why replacing both (all) batteries in a multi-battery system at the same time is recommended. This is to guarantee that the BCDCs charge profile is appropriate for both batteries. This is exactly my point. Never hook them together, they run at slightly different voltages. Mixing Battery Sizes: What Happens? Replacing the factory or AGM batteries with lithium is perfectly safe to run on a daily basis, has a much larger wattage capability, will start the vehicle faster, can be stored for. Got more questions? We strongly recommend you DO NOT attempt to mix battery sizes (amp-hours) and connect together. Is there a way to design the system to charge the AGM's for the start and thruster banks, and lithium for the house bank? Are you wondering if it is possible to mix AGM (absorbed glass mat) and lithium batteries? Under normal conditions, the Odyssey battery has nothing to do except provide occasional 100 A draws when I run my microwave. While we are changing brands for the RV, we are 100% sticking with Lithium - both in the RV AND on the next boat! The worst you can probably do to them is fry the BMS, which will basically make the battery useless. Hi all. The fact that AGM has a substantially lower DOD to manage than e.g. I have the agms that I can take out of series to get it running if I needed to now. Yes, you certainly can. Its not a good idea to mix and match battery brands. The owner realized this and pulled the plug within seconds of realizing the mistake. Upload or insert images from URL. I think I follow you. As already mentioned. Simply put, the answer is NO. However, you should never be connecting different battery sizes together in the same bank! Your link has been automatically embedded. Also, Can you parallel lithium and AGM batteries? That's true with the old Lithium-Ion batteries, but the newer LiFePo4 batteries are much safer. Today's question comes from Ryan H, who asks: Can I connect my new BLUETOPD31M in parallel with my one-year old (Other brand) Marine 29 series? Reasons to Switch to Lithium Boat Batteries More usable hours PDF 12,8 & 25,6 Volt Lithium-Iron-Phosphate Batteries Smart - Victron Energy Different types of batteries (flooded or AGM) also can have different charge/discharge characteristics. Can you charge them separately? How to Charge a Boat Battery on the Water: What You Need to Know No parasitic draw issues (not to mention saving some weight). We recommend this because lithium batteries charge faster than AGM. I am not in need of new batteries, yet. If worse comes to worse and one is on the water with a dead cranking battery, could you use the lithium to jump start with cables? The answer to the question is yes, but there are some caveats. The mixing lead acid and lifepo4 batteries is a question that has been asked many times. Use an isolator to prevent the AGM battery from draining the lithium battery. Do Lithium Deep Cycle batteries generate more heat than a lead-acid battery? By This is the easiest, but offers no safety nets and may impact lifespan. I run lithiums and all 4 are the same age. @Cassiopeia Here is a thread you may find of interest and possibly overlooked when you searched the forum first? The Safari UT 1300 is a Lifetime Battery up to 3,500 life cycles (100% discharge to recharge or "Depth of Discharge") vs only 250 life cycles for lead acid batteries. The new battery would still be underutilized in this scenario. Dang expensive though and you have to be careful if you do a equalization charge on a AGM.
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