H. B. Charles is the pastor of Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida. Give group members a better understanding of church basics for more effective ministry. True story. wouldnt be part of MFI, would it? I am certain that Dever and others at 9 Marks are very familiar with Jesus statement that people will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.. Foreword by I am going to start a ministry called Pound Sand Ministries. He believes if Christians (of whatever flavor) can agree on essential tenets of faith (e.g., the virgin birth), secondary and tertiary things like soteriology are not that essential and we shouldnt be fussing about them. That hyper-analytical processing style links to a divisionary mindset that affects everything, not just the bones we see that need to be picked out or spit out. @ lifelongfling: Not everything he says is toxic Not exactly a ringing endorsement. and differences that might be there between terms we use in English and current culture versus biblical words. like, people are introduced to God and how wonderful God is. And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Love People who have a genuine relationship with the Lord are not cruel; religious people can be. These guys have turned that simple statement into a weird system of bondage where one person is beholden to another human being and made to confess their deepest, darkest secrets to that person or persons. They refused to turn a blind eye and spoke out and were accused. Our church regularly gets refugees from them, generally fleeing because of controlling teachings about women and marriage. They really dont bother to check basic facts. We started a church in 1992. Thanks Loren. My exposure to Mohler and Dever has been in the context of the recovery and promotion of essential Christian doctrine and what I believe to be the proper view of Scripture. Their zeal is just baptized anger at some core wound. ++++++++++++++++++. When this bony fish is being served, is there ever an opportunity for the fish-eaters to publicly speak out at some point and note that they just encountered a fish bone and warn their fellow pewishioners to chew more carefully? *what you fed your children But Im not sure it applies to my comment to Law Prof. I would go as far as saying it is, and it is not a proper way to lead (by deception). Its all about control of people and organizations, the deeds of the Nicolaitans- the separating of laity and clergy, the creation of a ruling class. Maybe the problem is that many are pursuing the pastorate when they have not been called to it. And it was implemented by one of the most glittering of the gospel boys who is supposed to be so awesome. St Pauls 9 marks of a healthy church, as written to the Galatian church in the 1st century: I was always creeped out by the shaved heads in the church leadership of SGM churches. so they go on crusades & campaigns to rally the troops, planting ideas of you have to get it right! Kindle Store Kindle eBooks Religion & Spirituality Buy now with 1-Click Deliver to your Kindle Library Buy for others Give as a gift or purchase for a team or group. A slightly off-topic post from the subject, since everyone is reading here right now. They were terribly abused at their church when a church member sex abused the son. Most can get their kids Christian schooling paid for by the congregation while we peons have to pay $7-10K/year to send kids to Christian school. Also, even if that werent there in the Scriptures, if a U.S. church is registered as a non-profit entity, it is subject to accountability via IRS regulations. For starters, their business organization will suffer when they (1) hire and promote only those just like them, (2) get sued for gender and age discrimination, (3) use authority to stifle collaboration and creativity, (4) listen only to those who agree with them rather than others with experience and wisdom, and (5) micro-manage so the focus is on mindless transgressions rather than issues of substance. Book Review: A Praying Church, by Paul E. Miller, Pastor: Help Your Congregation Navigate Gay Pride Month, On Preaching Old Testament History (Preachers Talk, Ep. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. They would not deny that. I have saved this quote because I think it is so good! His statement was that while pedobaptists held wrong views about Baptism they otherwise had a track record of being Biblically faithful whereas egalitarians did not. Let us warriors protect you and your dainty petals. Amen Ted! Legal accountability as a non-profit organization is a different issue. There are no bones in caviar. I believe he does a very good job with much of what he teaches. That comment brought to mind a much earlier (and possibly even worse) chapter from Japanese history. This has been a long standing objection to T4G, particularly among Presbyterians but also some of the more traditional Reform Baptists. Get on the Map. Goodness PHILIP NATION (DMin, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary) is a publishing leader, a pastor, and an author. I have seen them with their families in person and have spoken to some. They are not willing to chuck a mark. Who knew? @ Lea: I believe he does a very good job with much of what he teaches. Dever and his staff are very accessible to pastors, and while I have never been to a 9 Marks conference, I have observed how Dever and others take an interest in pastors and seem to be offering something that is beneficial. They are not willing to chuck a mark. I can look at Al Mohler and Mark Dever and tell them where I think they are wrong and where they are right and remain friends with them. I bet similar scenes played numerous times in the Kremlin and Reichstag. I would attend a church your husband pastored and be glad to have such a humble servant, who truly shows the love of Jesus. I can answer this question because I saw it in practice. But I do that with people of all stripes in my life. And the pugnacious responses from the author even more so. And the saying doesnt take age into consideration. What is the acceptable ratio of fish-to-bone? The question is really whether their view of themselves is based in reality, and I do not think that it is. I believe this may be a big part of what keeps people stuck in these systems, the fact that there are others who own a part of you that no other person should. my conclusions: I so appreciate your words about Mahaney. or any other kind of strong character. That may be what they say, but practically speaking, the pastor holds the keys because the elders are carefully vetted yes-men and the congregation receives recommendations from the elders. A comprehensive and rich understanding of the church, its organization, and its practices strengthens our service and ministry as the body of Christ on earth. Except their wound is totally self-inflicted. because its all so necessary. Thank you for your reply and sharing your views with all of us, including about your acceptance of a wide variety of people on the Christian spectrum. All can be done abusively. Patience ^correction: I WOULNDT want to live with someone like him. I am not a psych-anything but I am nearly certain that one of these guys is NPD. On Truemans part, I think his view is shaped more by the importance he places on baptism rather than being wishy-washy on complementariansm. I think the YRR make baptism less important because they are more concerned about building their movement across the spectrum of the conservative church. When he came to Capitol Hill in the early '90s, the church was in decline. I agree with you here, Lydia. Its a very hard thing to script. If churches want a model to pattern their churches by, read the book of Acts. You have to listen to Christian teachers as you eat a piece of fish can I eat a piece of fish minus the Christian teachers? Jay Adams was doing a lot of speaking on the subject back then at conferences so I found a podcast and listened. By But these were present in my nonCalvinistic churches throughout my life. Jay Adams was doing a lot of speaking on the subject back then at conferences so I found a podcast and listened. I asked more questions about his familyhe exhorted me about the need to be part of a Gospel-Centered church that was run according to Biblical principles. I really appreciate your commenting here. Velour wrote: He has written for a number of publications and is the author or editor of a number of books. Anonymous wrote: When people come in the door, they will recognize the love that the members have for one another. Ive tried searching and cannot find it. This was my impression in high school. But if you think women are equal you are divisive and hurting the church. Baptism is an opinion and egalitarianism is a conviction? And you should be a faithful friend who is willing to wound them with the truth and call them to repentance before they hurt any more people. However you find Mahaney a horrible embarrassment. The problem with the 9 Marks system is, however, exactly what Bea just pointed out its trying to accomplish by rules what is best (only?) 13 If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but dont love, Im nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. Lesson 4: whatever goodness is in your life is more than you deserve. The loyalty/friend angle is what I hear the most which is now accepted by society in many areas: politics, business, entertainment. Later in their text: @ Lydia: Instead of that, they have embraced the abuser and condemned the victims. I realize I have opened another can of worms but discussing other matters, but it may help you understand how I have met people in one context and enjoyed and appreciated what they do, but do not agree with them in other ways. our mutual friend, when I knew him, was fun-loving, kind, goofy, sincere. . 6. Dever and Leeman have harmed the name of Jesus Christ before outraged unbelievers who dont even subscribe to this level of viciousness. If comp is an opinion the entire caste system is in danger including the idea that they are specially appointed by God to teach and lead others. That article was absolutely disgusting. The entire Village meltdown reminds me of Jael and Sisera. Heres another one. So they come up with this halfhearted dont try this too soon position. Law Prof, isnt that a bit harsh? The students whose parents sheltered and controlled everything they did as kids and teenagers went absolutely crazy when they got to college and their parents werent there telling them what to do. A few more decades have only made it bother me more. And sometimes if we use public school they are looked down upon, but peons live in the real world. I look at the fruits and simply do not believe they love Jesus. And that is why it is crucial to identify that the functional reality of these authority figures is that they take the place of the Holy Spirit by imposing law on those who seek to follow Jesus, and take the place of Jesus Christ as the supposedly authorized mediator between the everyday disciple and the Father. And each of us probably has some ideas about how to correct the shortcomings of our own upbringing. I would be happy to help your relative if he needs any assistance. I observe all human beings to be anywhere on the cruel to kind spectrum, regardless of their view of God. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. It was an acknowledgement that we cannot do church without the supernatural power of God. I dont get it because these members have children to protect, not to serve up as offerings to these cultic monsters. There are a lot of pastors who I think have very quickly tried to be obedient to what they see in scripture, but theyve done it without a lot of wisdom in knowing how to implement things in their local churches, and its caused a lot of unnecessary pain. In 9Marxist churches anything the slightest dissent and not even any kind of gross, unrepentant sexual immorality gets a person subjected to *church discipline* by the pastors/elders including being threatened with you *must not be one of us*, banned from church property, excommunicated and shunned. ), 4. You may have read books on this topic before but not like this one. Matthew 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on mens shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. Elders in these type of systems imprint onto their denominational or extra-church leaders rather than Jesus. The younger generation often sees this as craven and ineffective. And they have elevated their distinctives to the level of non-negotiable dogma. In my way of thinking, this is not merely about doctrinal statements (which are symptoms), but underlying presuppositions and paradigms (which are systems). The personal ambitions I had been aiming for began to seem insignificant compared to the growing desire for Gods glory to be displayed through the local church. im very sorry for the horrible and rotten way your wife was treated. He is teaching them, by example, that pastors and people in with the in crowd are exempt. 13 But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. I agree with you totally about top-down policy be anathema to Baptists. One thing that concerned me about the 9Marks movement is that they attempt by polity to perform the work of the Spirit in terms of members commitments and choices Is there freedom in these churches? 6. I realize that not all Neo cals are going to make these connections because they are immersed in 9marks and might have missed the earlier roots that revived what is basically a Puritan interpretation/ tradition in pracice. We can only love others to the extent that we feel loved by God. People continued going to their denominational church, and would meet with other charismatics at other times. The woman church member was accused by the senior pastor of *not being submissive to her husband*! The way Todd Wilhelm was treated by Mark Dever's extremely close colleague when he resigned from UCCD illustrates how unbiblical 9Marks really is. I have never seen anything more grievous. I think theres truth to this. the Christian marketplace of ideas (& the products they generate) is all so divisive. But, they were too big and too important to hear the warnings from the people they viewed as below them and under their authority. If we believe that Gods love is conditional, our love will likewise be conditional. A critique of their way of doing things, no matter how mild or respectful, is filtered by their systemic thinking be to slander, or gossip and slander. perhaps meet Jesus for the first time, I can appreciate someones perspective and acknowledge their feelings, but I may not share them. They have rationalized their problems. 7. That is certainly not exclusive to 9Marks and the YRR, but when someone is hectoring everyone else about how to do church right it just as certainly neuters their message. If it is allowed to be an opinion then the whole top down system is in danger. Hope the link works. That was exactly my diagnosis when I left CHBC. Self-control. 7. And let me assure you that 9Marks reaches into local Baptist churches directly by supplying them with resources and via informal networks and formal networks. Eat the fish leave the bones. Copyright 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. It would be better to come in the back door by stealth and deception, rather than be upfront about the real objective (a strategy that numerous YRR picked up on to gain control of non-Calvinist pulpits anything but a healthy church). I realize that not all Neo cals are going to make these connections because they are immersed in 9marks and might have missed the earlier roots that revived what is basically a Puritan interpretation/ tradition in pracice. At least that is what I think they would say. No new people + attrition of disaffected= eventual collapse. Let's not forget my Maltese Coconut. Words no longer have objective meaning; the meaning is assigned by their systemit is impossible to get a fair, objective hearing. In other words, they have essentially added their distinctives to the Apostles Creed since their distinctives are viewed as Gospel necessities. @ Gram3: Ill continue in a following post on what came next. Biblical Theology = Reformed Theology, of course, The Gospel = Doctrines of Grace, of course. Top-down polity should be anathema to Baptists. These days I never assume we are talking about the same Jesus when I am talking to certain segments of the Christian population. I believe he does a very good job with much of what he teaches. 2. Lay down your swords. Maybe the problem is that many are pursuing the pastorate when they have not been called to it. I agree with all of that. Also first name sounded old fashioned and not cool bro. Ive truly wondered about this. I want to suggest a better way to examine 9marks: Much of this is dependent on things that cannot be written down. Instead of no dancing and drinking legalism we have onerous membership covenants and churches where any hint of dissent is not tolerated. His latest book is Habits for Our Holiness: How the Spiritual Disciplines Grow Us Up, Draw Us Together, and Send Us Out. 1. I know one of them, Gramp3 has met another one, and we are within one degree of separation about a zillion different ways from several of the Gospel Glitterati. I have to counter your statement with this: it is a true statement that my atheist friends have been as loving and kind as the best Christian person Ive ever known. They show up every week, they give, they serve. I say all this to point out that no man was in charge. Doesnt revel when others grovel, These range from practical to academic, and aim at both pastors and . Nauseating to listen to. Really, are these pastors so slow that it takes 5 years to persuade people of something that is truly Biblical? It is nothing less than (my favorite Mohlerism) gross dereliction. It relegates wives to the status of glorified plantation slaves. A is accountable to B when A is obliged to inform B about As (past or future) actions and decisions, to justify them, and to suffer punishment in the case of eventual misconduct. I wonder how the New Calvinists will fare when they cast their preferences, opinions convictions, and attitudes at the foot of Jesus on judgment day? and irony of all ironies it is. Dont become slavish fan boys of anyone or any movement. I am old enough to look back on all of the stuff that I did that I thought was going to change this or that, and sometimes only see that I was as bad as the people I was trying to correct. I E we side heavily with the victim etc. At my ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist church the pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that if any attenders werent willing to sign a Membership Covenant that they *obviously werent one of us* and *God hadnt called you to be at this church*. By continuing to use the 9M website, you consent to the use of cookies. We never had to build a wall to keep our people in! What? (Pastors Talk, Ep. And there seems to be resistance to many of the programs and approaches tried by evangelicals. That is certainly not exclusive to 9Marks and the YRR, but when someone is hectoring everyone else about how to do church right it just as certainly neuters their message. H. B. Charles Jr., Criminal gangs meet the real problems of their gang members. Exactly We are called to love as JC loved us.. in a sacramental way that is a HUGH bar to achieve, but we are told that is how His disciples are to be known.. And, for what is worth, I do not claim that I live the way that I should! That is the problem. my intuitive sensors pick up on feedback that suggests that some church leaders are threatened by Jesus and the attention & limelight he gets. Whether youre a pastor, a leader, or an involved member ofyour congregation, studying the nine marks of a healthy church will help you cultivate new life and well-being within your own church for Gods glory. Great way to put it. These men have failed in their most basic functions: to guard and protect the flock. A young reformer at an SBC church plant in my area said this in a sermon This is one prayer you should never pray: Jesus, forgive me of my sins. That, of course, was delivered to those assumed to be the elect. Years ago one could not be a senior pastor until about 45 years of age with experience as associate pastor required, as well as with age generally comes wisdom. Lol! Yup, its 9Marks alright. This is why I believe youre enormously foolish to support Dever in much of anything, because the biblical model of church discipline is absolutely anathema to Devers paradigm. Nine Marks of a Healthy Church (3rd Edition) : 9Marks Reader beware: this book could totally transform the way you see the seemingly ordinary local church. Atheists are kind and cruel. Ive heard this one a lot myself. I would like to be a charter member of Pound Sand Ministries. Velour wrote: the feedback also suggests that this is partly subconscious on their part. they cant all be right. @ Lea: That does not mean that I support everything that went on in the name of that movement. Shauna is a single mom. Maybe they would be more suited to business. Ukraine war latest: Zelenskyy asked about counteroffensive; Putin hits Even the unbelievers generally understand that protecting a child predator is morally wrong. If they had to face themselves or their presuppositions (as Dr Fundystan suggests) they would have to face the damage at the core of their psyche. And an employee is accountable for meeting performance standards whether or not they agree with the expectations. I have a relative who was in a church here in town that is Baptist but follows a lot of 9 Marks teaching. As God tells us He doesnt look at the impressive outer appearance like people do, Hes looking at the heart. Maybe like the wisdom James taught us about-. The question is how God exercises his sovereignty. Anonymous wrote: If we believe that he is angry and controlling then we will become angry and controlling. Hundreds of church members were ordered to stay after the church service. They've drawn lines in the wrong places and they're misunderstanding things. Gram3 is correct. 108 Shelby Rogers. You can find him on Twitter at @hrcharlesjr. We should put them on our Pound Sand care list and pray for them to repent of their perversion of the Gospel and be restored to fellowship in a Pound Sand affiliated LocalChurch. They use deceptive language and propaganda techniques. It is not a mistake. In my view, the movements or unhealthy things to which 9 Marks was reacting are the trends and characteristics of the continued presence of theological liberalism, the health and wealth and prosperity Pentecostalism, the Seeker movement which was dominant at Willow Creek and other places, and some church movements which believe in the Bible and are in the Baptist camp (so to speak), but which through poor exegesis may have strains of legalism (an over emphasis on certain cultural behaviors) and an imbalance in the pulpit of emphasizing a decision every week (sometimes rooted in the Gospel, but sometimes not) without the balanced discipleship of people of by going through the entire Bible and trying to help a proper understanding. Maybe something along these lines: Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. I know highschool students who gathered together in groups of 3 or 4 to worship and praise God, to pray to Him and to seek His face. Its not as you surmise that I am friends but havent read the 9 Marks stuff. It bothered me some 40+ years ago when I heard it first from Corrie ten Boom. It means that I supported an intentional effort to see that the SBC seminaries were teaching in accordance with essential Christian doctrine and the SBCs Confession of Faith the Baptist Faith and Message. Theyve drawn lines in the wrong places and theyre misunderstanding things.
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